The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. Hofstra University, +1 more. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. United States. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. So thats also a bad argument. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. Anything else you might disagree with? And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? Can a person die? But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. So I dont believe that the church in the biblical sense has been an era all that time. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? How would you treat that thing? When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. So thats all up there as well. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. So it must be used in some other way. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Mary had this early body. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. You can get both of those on Amazon. So this next question is for you, Steve. So my quick mini rebuttal. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. We dont believe that is the case. Suppose we discovered the actual cross Jesus had been crucified on. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Yeah. Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Although the Pharisees had authority regarding ritual practices, they did not have doctrinal authority over other Jews, including those who came to believe Jesus was the messiah. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. Okay. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. This sure is fun, isnt it? So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. Christiaan Kappes. So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. Oh, youre on mute. No, of course not. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. So lets stick with what scripture actually supports. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. Thats fair. And even there, he admitted it doesnt explicitly talk about Mary. He mentioned about the Septuagint. Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. We ought to do it. It doesnt mention sin there. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. Im running out of time. Trent Horn vs Steve Christie Apocrypha Debate Recap & Discussion, Our Friend Steve Christie Gets Mitch Pacwa to Admit Abel to Zechariah Is About the Canon, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon With Steve ChristiePart 1, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon Part 2 with Steve Christie, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon with Steve ChristiePart 3, Gary Michutas Apocrypha Apocalypse Challenge ANSWERED! It doesnt even imply that. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Im throwing you a bone here. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. FEIN: 47-5459301. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. So I agree with that. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. Maybe a little too much. So Steves defending the affirmative. He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. What is pure fiction cannot be used as factual evidences. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. Submit to my authority. He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . I only have to prove there is no contradiction. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. The same in any intellectual study. He was content to let go and die a natural death. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. You mean the son of John? Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. He was human. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. Okay. Thank you very much, Trent. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. Christie then nailed a 46-yard field goal in overtime, giving the Bills their third victory of the season. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. So then it isnt literally saying every single human has sinned or every man has sinned. No one else ever before in the history of salvation had been asked to do something like that. So does that mean that Mary could have had daughters because it says, the son of Mary? He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. 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