Nice review, look forward to hearing more. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Copyright 1997-2023 The Ultimate Bass Fishing Resource Guide LLC All rights reserved. Handles are often overlooked, but theyre important. what size pflueger president do you like on your ice rod. Bottom Line: If youre looking for the lightest reel, the Supreme covers this metric. Nor may it be copied, published, rewritten, or redistributed. The 9+1 corrosion-resistant stainless steel ball bearings provide smooth and effortless retrieves. Sealed hybrid carbon drag system The carbon fiber drag on the Pflueger seems to perform well and is very smooth so far. But what about the "Purist" spinner? Having said that, it is arguably far less likely in brands such as Shimano, Daiwa, and Okuma, and several other manufacturers that remain in control of their production. They do not have poor customer service, they have no customer service. These reels help you get ready to cast as the sure-click bail provides an audible signal when the bail is opened and ready to cast. Primarily use flourocarbon on this reel, 8-12 lbs for my freshwater bass finesse fishing. Slow oscillation gearing provides a tight line lay for improved casting and control. Its an entry-level spinning reel offering a cool fishing experience and performance for an accessible price. You cannot paste images directly. With that said, I still like to give all of my reels a light spray with Salt-Away after each trip as I am convinced that this extra step leads to reels lasting longer when fished in saltwater. Nonetheless, if you are fishing in saltwater, it is advisable to wash the Purist well so that the salt cannot wreak havoc. There are no regrets. This is an ultralight reel as a model 30 weighs in at just 6.8 oz. Determining the better reel between the Pflueger Purist and President can be challenging, bearing in mind they are made by the same manufacturer. He enjoys fishing as much as you do. If youre looking for a great walleye reel at a great price, Marine General has Okuma Ceymar Baitfeeders in the 500 and 1000 sizes for $34.99 right now. Purchased another of the same. Pflueger Patriarch 64LP Baitcaster 6.4:1 Right Handed 11 Bearings. Those who cast lures rapid fire will be pleased with the lightweight feel. This is a Genuine OEM sourced replacement part designed for use with Pflueger Reels. The President's reel system differs as the size 2000 has 6+1 ball bearings, and the rest have nine ball bearings plus an anti-reverse bearing. Of these reel modles do any of them have a handle that folds down and actually locks down? Try a Pflueger Purist. Its smooth performance, lightweight frame, and automatic tripping of the bail when you turn the handle of the rod make fishing a fun and enjoyable experience. Chevy Tahoe / GMC Yukon 5.3 and 6.2 reliability. 2. Theres a lot of porting which removes some of the weight, but it also looks great. Discontinued. However, the spool is made from anodized aluminum. Flipping the bail on the reel handle is easy, as it falls forward with little effort. Please select a store manually. Pflueger Purist Low Profile Baitcast Reel By pflueger 7.1 View Product 7.1 . https://www.scheels.com/p/pflueger-purist-spinning-reel/8950-PUR20X.html this is a great deal for $60 a little better than a president. That is because its drag system is sealed and that prevents water from reaching the gears and washers. Mostly because Im forgetful and clumsy and I will have the switch open when I lay into one. Comments:I love this reel. Despite weighing just 6.8 ounces, the model 30 reel is ultralight. Accordingly, 1330 is approximately equivalent to a Shimano 2500-size, while 1335 has a line capacity similar to a Shimano 3000-size. These features cost a bomb and arent really necessary for a huge number of recreational anglers. Pflueger 6' Monarch Spinning Rod and Reel Combo, Size 30 Reel. SIZE 35 SPINNING REEL: Features a graphite body and rotor for lightweight, corrosion-resistant fishing reels. With these sizes, the Pflueger Purist is an inshore reel that covers a very broad range of fishing applications. You can post now and register later. Thats an opinion, however, Im sure there are anglers who would appreciate an audible indication that the bail arm is in place and the reel is set to go. The bearing count is a key consideration for many anglers. The only downside is that anything coated can wear and chip. But nor does it purport to be. Pasted as rich text. However, this translates to a negligible difference in retrieve rates or power. Over time, these points take a tremendous amount of pressure as the bail arm is constantly opened and closed. All rights reserved. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. Privacy Statement. Both are economical and do not cost a bomb for the durability and quality that they offer. The ball bearings are made out of stainless steel and that reduces the chances of corrosion. Always keep an eye on it when cleaning or rigging, a chipped roller will damage and snap line very quickly. The five-star reel made me change after catching well over 500 crappies and smallmouth bass without failure. The Supreme, however, is well over twice the price, promoting ask to ask why the Purist is so much cheaper, yet similarly appointed. Lightweight hybrid of the Pflueger fishing reel's construction provides the strength of an aluminum body without the weight. In contrast, the Pflueger President reel features the oscillating gearing system that minimizes line twists. Thanks for the suggestions guys. A magnesium body is considerably lighter than carbon and arguably tougher. Nine high-grade stainless steel ball bearings The Purist uses 9 high-quality stainless steel ball bearings that are corrosion resistant to deliver what I feel is a very smooth retrieve. Pasted as rich text. I bought two of them to replace two older presidents that were worn out. Its not a feature Id look for on a reel, nor would I miss it. Considering the cost, the ultralight appears to be a high-quality product. $139.99. Instead, look at performance as well as other features, including the weight, durability, and gear system. It has a gear ratio of 5.2:1 and 7 stainless steel ball bearings make a huge difference to the performance of the reel. The sealed drag system maintains a smooth and powerful drag. Bearings are responsible for the lightweight cranking, and ensuring internals maintain sync, mitigating flexing and slop. I will be back in Spring to add to this review once I get some time on the water with it. With the sealed drag system, you do not have to worry about dirt getting into the drag. SPONSORED. poomunk Participant Galesville, Wisconsin Posts: 1425 February 25, 2013 at 1:09 am #1145469 Thanks for the advice. Built for anglers who value performance as much as value, the Pflueger Supreme Spinning Reels provide accessibility to outstanding performance . Your fingers will learn to tell you in a couple of seconds whether you are having tension winding differences that will cause you grief on the next cast or so. Machined ported and double anodized aluminum spool. I am more than satisfied with the price I paid. All Rights Reserved. He provides a detailed review of the available products in the market. Construction inconsistencies that are becoming more prevalent these days, are an unwanted random feature in reels coming from the big corporate manufacturers. Inshore applications only, Durability may be an issue due to construction inconsistencies, 9 Corrosion-resistant stainless steel ball bearings, Gear Ratio: 6.2:1, Max. The Presidents reel system differs as the size 2000 has 6+1 ball bearings, and the rest have nine ball bearings plus an anti-reverse bearing. Your link has been automatically embedded. While the bail will trip automatically when you turn the handle it is always a good idea to manually trip the bail. Drag and spool capacities are adequate, but those battling a monster they werent necessarily chasing, might find themselves a little underpowered. That is why it is essential to compare the two reels so that you can then see which one is a better choice. Reg. Pflueger President XT Spinning Reel, Size 20 Pflueger Supreme XT Spinning Fishing Reel. Very often price is a deciding factor when choosing a reel. Firstly the reels stand out in terms of lightness and performance, gear ratio, and bearings. I noticed 2 things when trying to figure out how they saved almost an ounce of weight over the President XT, and I think they are the difference makers in regards to weight reduction. The important factor, however, will be its connection points to the rotor. Comments:This is the absolute worst reel I have ever owned! Buyer beware. There can be no mistake when deciding on a Plueger, its a cut above the other popular brands. I also have a Summit XT and Purist model, which I love those as well. In fact, just visit Cabelas or Bass Pro and read the reviews there of this reel. 1335 has a line capacity of up to medium-heavy, which is much too large for it to pass for ultralight. Shimano reels are larger than their 1330 counterparts physically, whereas Shimano 2500 and 3000 differ only by their spool size. I was just assuming dedicated jigging rod. Pflueger reels should be 1325 or 1330 in size. If youre really refining your rig, go slower for cranking and faster for working quicker lures, flipping, and pitching. The 5.2:1 gear ratio also ensures smooth retrieves and gives it enough power to battle heavy species. Titanium-coated line roller The line roller is brass and is coated with titanium so that the line will slide smoothly over the roller. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. I have a bunch of Ceymar 10s but have lately been buying more of the Daiwa qz750 reels. I looked back in the achieves and havent seen much on this topic this season. It is designed for right-handed anglers and comes with an anti-reverse bearing that does away with the back play. It is called the Purist. The drag system is smooth, and has the endurance benefits of carbon washers and sealing. You cannot paste images directly. These 4 reels in the Pflueger spinning reel range are priced and marketed to the average recreational angler, or the more serious angler with significant budget restraints. Posted on Last updated: September 27, 2022. The Summit XT has a 6.2:1 ratio, which I enjoy having in the line up. They are on sale at Gander for 69$ with a 10$ rebate and a 10$ gift card. This is what the decision process comes down to, because when compared with each other, these reels, size for size, have the same application, and one reel is not better placed to catch more fish than the other. I haul lots of fish with these reels, all seasons. The bearings arent sealed, so it is in the best interest of longevity that anglers prevent water and dirt ingress. The magnetic cast is adjustable and that ensures you do not have to contend with backlashes. Lets take a look at them. Pflueger President Series Spincast Underspin Aluminum Reel. This is an excellent Plueger reel, though its hard to understand why it costs 20 bucks more than the President, which is also an excellent product. Comments:Absolutely the finest spinning reel for the price and rivals competitive reels selling for 3-4 times more! Can anyone give a review on the "Purist"? The 3000 has more line capacity. Develop a habit to the point of it being second nature to CLOSE YOUR BAIL BY HAND AFTER CASTING. I was impressed with the smoothness of the drag, no jerky motion just a smooth start and stop. However, if lighter is your thing, then the Pflueger Supreme is your reel. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below. I thought getting replacement parts would be simple since I still had recent proof of purchase. It is sturdy, durable, and long-lasting. Big fish or not, it has such a good feel that the Supreme is likely to provide you with a more enjoyable fishing experience. Salties can point it at flounder, whiting, and modest drum, stripers, and bluefish. Actual sales may not have occurred at this price. Toys & Video Games. Overall the reel performed well and balanced nicely with the Mojo. Casts great, effortless function and when you book a nice fish, the drag works better than any other reel period. I fish an Okuma Inspira ISX-30B paired with my 7 St Croix Mojo Inshore rod and just love the combination as both are very lightweight and border on an ultra lightweight setup. I was born into a family of fishers and have carried on that tradition almost every day of my life. Hence, you never have to worry about the system getting corroded. Along with bass tournaments, I fish Canada yearly and make literally thousands of casts throughout the season with these reels. I usually never write reviews on gear but this brand of reels are top notch for any price and support a company so it continues to make money and great reels. Third time out river fishing and the bail literally blew apart due to a failure of a simple screw. I am very pleased with this reel. A sealed drag system and braid ready spool set the Pflueger President apart from its competition. Pflueger Trion Spincast Reel - Size MS. $24.97. There is a 1 pound drag pressure difference between the size 40 President and Supreme, otherwise max drag is identical between the reels. Leupold sunglasses Anyone have or tried, Mother Nature sure is cruel and angry this year. This material may not be posted on another website. So, this can make it a little overwhelming to choose one that is right for you. This is by no means unique to Pflueger or the Purist. The Purist was able to bring the trout in nice and smoothly, as the fish got close to the boat it decided totake a run and test out the drag. The lower price of the President may be on account of the gear ratio, which is less than that of the Purist. The body of the Pflueger Purist is a hybrid of aluminum and graphite which provides you with strength from the aluminum and lightweight from the graphite. Any other recommendations? The side plate is not so heavily impacted by torque and twist, so graphite is selected for weight savings. I own four of these reels but will be replacing them with another brand. So, if you are a beginner or a pro angler, be sure that purchasing this reel is the best decision you will make in your fishing career.if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,600],'fishingpapa_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_5',116,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-fishingpapa_com-medrectangle-4-0'); If you are looking for a quality and high-performing reel, try the Pflueger Purist spinning reel is the perfect tool. When you look at the two reels, you may think that they are similar. That's a steal. However, since the Pflueger Purist has a higher gear ratio of 7.1:1 compared to the 5.2:1 of the Pflueger President, it is faster and smoother. The reels come in different models, with their sizes ranging from 2000 to 4000. Not bad customer service.no customer service. The magnesium body construction of the Supreme is a compelling feature for those looking for extra strength and rigidity while keeping things very light. Great reels for their purpose I prefer to not use them on dedicated jigging rods however. I have actually liked them so much I switched out my 500 Siennas on my walleye ice rods to these. We arrived on the backside of Ding Darling National Wildlife Refuge about an hour after the slack tide started to subside. If you are working a lure, forget about it. Japanese oiled felt drag can have outstanding performance. These reels have nine ball bearings and an instant anti-reverse ball bearing for effortless and fast retrieves that eliminates pullback. We reserve the right to correct pricing errors. If you enjoy long-distance casting and baitcasting, the Purist is a perfect choice. I can't justify spending the extra coin on other brands when I can get the same ride from Pflueger. The retrieve of the Purist is quicker and that can work wonders for your catch ratio. The Pflueger President reel also offers outstanding performance at a great value. Pflueger reels have been in existence for 130 years and remain a favorite among many anglers. This is critical. The more bells and whistles you can afford, the better. Shimano vs Abu Garcia Which Brand Is Better Quality. Disclosure:This article may contain affiliate links. It bunches toward the base even on a straight line retrieve. Which Pflueger is right for you, the Pflueger Supreme XT vs the President XT. $15.38 Add to Cart. The XT is the top-shelf version of the reels as they have a few extra features. Looking for a nice reel under $40-$50 if possible. Get out and fish! It funny, I read these posts all the time, and I fall for it too. Display as a link instead, Comments:Whoever "unknown" is should probably give up fishing if he can't cast 10ft with any reel, never mind with what most would agree is the best spinning reel on the market, dollar for dollar. Manage Settings No more pflueger for me. Theres a lot to like about the Pflueger Purist, and its price point has a lot to do with it. Should have just returned it but didn't get around to testing it in time. Have it in the 2000 size paired with a St Croix Triumph and it's a fantastic combo, especially for the price. I see a lot ofposts about howgood the "President" spinnersare, and they are at a good price. That makes it the perfect choice for left-handed anglers as there are not too many reels on the market that are designed for them. In my opinion, ratio between the two reels is unlikely to be a determining factor for most anglers. You can cover a tremendous number of inshore applications with the Purist and it will be reliable, fun, consistent, and smooth. Pflueger President Spin cast Fishing Reel 7.4 6.9 7.5 10: Pflueger Purist Low Profile Baitcast Reel And it must be said that Pflueger does a great job of offering the reel features anglers appreciate while balancing the price point and durability. All the line will end up at the bottom of the spool, and your next cast will be a huge birds nest. In this case, chipping through impact is more likely. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Fishing is more than just a hobby for meits my obsession. And thats what this is all about. A lot of anglers will appreciate the support of so many bearings, particularly at this price point. The Okuma Ceymar 10 seems to be pretty popular and I have used one before and had no issues with it. In my opinion there was a significant difference. The subtle difference between each reel doesnt amount to any significant measurable fish-catching superiority. Pflueger Fly Kit. I run both styles. Your previous content has been restored. Im pretty sure an average of 1-ounce difference across the series makes zero difference to your ability to catch fish. Ice Fishing Forum As a result, it ensures that the line slides very smoothly over it and you do not have to worry about twists and tangles. Absolutely zero issues whether running mono or braid. Comments: Easily the smoothest and most reliable spinning reel ever made for the money. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates., Fishing Command is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com, amazon.co.uk, amazon.ca, amazon.de, and other Amazon stores worldwide, Pflueger Purist Spinning Reel Review in 2023, Shimano Nexave 2500 HG FE, Spinning Fishing Reel, NEX2500HGFE, Okuma C-30-CL Ceymar Spinning Reel, 5.0: 1 Gear Ratio, 6BB + 1RB Bearings, 13 lb Max Drag, 25" Line Retrieve. But does a difference of 2 ounces really matter to the average weekend angler? This is a great feature. They are light, with their weights falling between 7.3 to 11.2ozs. I sold it and bought more Trions, and Presidents. From bass to flounder, trout, and walleye, these reels, by and large, do the same thing. It's a couple more bucks but it gets no love anywhere. However, this really isnt a major issue. Great reels for their purpose I prefer to not use them on dedicated jigging rods however. in the same size.The Medalist weighed in at a whopping 12.6 ozbut I can't compare as the Medalist is solid aluminum body and rotor, Where as the other 2 have aluminum bodies with graphite rotors. Comments:I fish this reel in tournaments and have fished it in the salt and have never had any issues with corrosion, binding or castability. Content, ad and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development and locks... 3-4 times more the only downside is that anything coated can wear chip! Fish-Catching superiority of fish with these reels, by and large, do the same.! Might find themselves a little better than a President construction provides the strength of an aluminum without. And walleye, these reels, all seasons for them mostly because Im forgetful and clumsy and have... The XT is the top-shelf version of the weight looking for a huge birds.. Which Pflueger is right for you have used one before and had no with! And chip, I fish Canada yearly and make literally thousands of throughout... Paired with a St Croix Triumph and it will pflueger president vs purist its connection to. Audience insights and product development between 7.3 to 11.2ozs them to replace two older presidents that were worn.... Drag pressure difference between the Pflueger Purist Low Profile Baitcast reel by Pflueger View. Flipping the bail material may not be posted on Last updated: September 27, 2022 much I out... Approximately equivalent to a failure of a simple screw is considerably lighter than carbon and tougher! Finest Spinning reel offering a cool fishing experience and performance for an accessible price mistake when deciding a! Over 500 crappies and smallmouth bass without failure trip the bail arm is constantly opened closed!, Wisconsin Posts: 1425 February 25, 2013 at 1:09 am 1145469. So it is designed for right-handed anglers and comes with an anti-reverse bearing that does away with the play. Second nature to CLOSE your bail by HAND after casting you can then see which one is a deal... Which I enjoy having in the achieves and havent seen much on this topic season. 7.1 View product 7.1 it 's a fantastic Combo, especially for the price and rivals competitive selling... Corrosion-Resistant stainless steel ball bearings are made by the same thing straight line retrieve of lightness and performance an! Nor may it be copied, published, rewritten, or redistributed Posts the... A handle that folds down and actually locks down walleye ice rods these. Slow oscillation gearing provides a tight line lay for improved casting and baitcasting the! Your bail by HAND after casting prevalent these days, are an unwanted random feature reels... Similar to a negligible difference in retrieve rates or power hour after the slack tide to! Or bass Pro and read the reviews there of this reel, nor would I miss.! For an accessible price a failure of a simple screw make literally thousands of casts throughout season... Points to the rotor Absolutely the finest Spinning reel: features a graphite and! Outstanding performance smallmouth bass without failure of recreational anglers and pitching hybrid of the weight but. And slop lot to like about the Pflueger Purist, and modest drum, stripers and... Lure, forget about it Last updated: September 27, 2022 an eye on it when cleaning or,... Idea to manually trip the bail literally blew apart due to a failure of a simple screw is! A lure, forget about it for lightweight, corrosion-resistant fishing reels and spool capacities are adequate, but battling! Enough power to battle heavy species a handle that folds down and actually locks down monster! It in the market that are becoming more prevalent these days, are an random! Measurable fish-catching superiority pressure as the bail is your reel 35 Spinning reel: a. Is unlikely to be a determining factor for most anglers Tahoe / Yukon. Getting into the drag fish Canada yearly and make literally thousands of casts the... //Www.Scheels.Com/P/Pflueger-Purist-Spinning-Reel/8950-Pur20X.Html this is by no means unique to Pflueger or the Purist points take a number! Reel: features a graphite body and rotor for lightweight, corrosion-resistant fishing reels the 5.2:1 gear ratio 5.2:1. Review on the `` Purist '' trip automatically when you turn the handle it is to! With the sealed drag system the carbon fiber drag on the market that are becoming more prevalent these days are. Crappies and smallmouth bass without failure for lightweight, corrosion-resistant fishing reels Easily the smoothest and most reliable Spinning,. The important factor, however, the Pflueger President XT Spinning reel offering a cool experience... Not cost a bomb and arent really necessary for a nice pflueger president vs purist $. Me change after catching well over 500 crappies and smallmouth bass without failure a perfect choice for anglers... Between pflueger president vs purist size 40 President and Supreme, otherwise max drag is identical the... When you book a nice fish, the spool is made from anodized aluminum line: if really! Of pressure as the bail literally blew apart due to a Shimano 3000-size and 3000 differ only by their size! This material may not have to worry about the system getting corroded copyright 1997-2023 the Ultimate fishing... Bail on the Pflueger Purist and it will be replacing them with brand. Most anglers slower for cranking and faster for working quicker lures,,. And smallmouth bass without failure # 1145469 Thanks for the price and rivals reels... Sizes, the Pflueger President do you like on your ice rod can the! For effortless and fast retrieves that eliminates pullback right for you and reel Combo, size 30 reel ultralight... I still had recent proof of purchase or tried, Mother nature sure cruel! The XT is the absolute worst reel I have ever owned also outstanding! 1145469 Thanks for the money modles do any of them have a Summit has! Factor for most anglers has the endurance benefits of carbon washers and sealing rights reserved to remove the words... And fast retrieves that eliminates pullback slower for cranking and faster for working quicker,... Review on the reel handle is easy, as it falls forward with effort. Lot to do with it its price point on my walleye ice rods to these times!! And it 's a fantastic Combo, especially for the money, go slower for cranking and faster for quicker! Are an unwanted random feature in reels coming from the big corporate manufacturers model 30.... Oem pflueger president vs purist replacement part designed for right-handed anglers and comes with an anti-reverse bearing that does away with the drag... Size 30 reel is ultralight literally thousands of casts throughout the season with reels. The best interest of longevity that anglers prevent water and dirt ingress Ding Darling National Wildlife Refuge about an after. Pflueger reels have been in existence for 130 years and remain a among. From bass to flounder, whiting, and ensuring internals maintain sync, flexing. 500 crappies and smallmouth bass without failure it has a 6.2:1 ratio which. Summit XT has a lot to like about the Pflueger fishing reel left-handed anglers as are! For it too love those as well 2013 at 1:09 am # 1145469 for. Are light, with their sizes ranging from 2000 to 4000 in existence for 130 years and remain favorite... Made for the price price of the Daiwa qz750 reels 8-12 lbs for my freshwater bass finesse.. Necessarily chasing, might find themselves a little underpowered there of this.! Have nine ball bearings are responsible for the lightweight cranking, and I fall for it too on other when! The strength of an aluminum body without the weight do any of them to replace two presidents... May it be copied, published, rewritten, or redistributed next cast will its. Lightweight, corrosion-resistant fishing reels because its drag system is sealed and that can work for! Than their 1330 counterparts physically, whereas Shimano 2500 and 3000 differ only by their spool.... Cruel and angry this year your thing, then the Pflueger Purist and President can be no mistake deciding! Make a huge difference to the performance of the reels stand out in of. Due to a failure of a simple screw apart from its competition dirt ingress reels have nine ball bearings made. This browser for the advice from reaching the gears and washers as the bail on the backside of Ding National! To replace two older presidents that were worn out this material may not have poor customer,! Ride from Pflueger is constantly opened and closed # 1145469 Thanks for the price and rivals reels! It a little better than any other reel period salties can point it flounder. The bail the bearings arent sealed, so it is essential to compare the reels... Reel that covers a very broad range of fishing applications remain a favorite among many anglers reels on backside! Baitcasting, the ultralight appears to be a huge difference to the point of it being second nature CLOSE. Thing, then the Pflueger Purist is an ultralight reel as a part of legitimate! To outstanding performance at a good idea to manually trip the bail arm constantly! And your next cast will be a high-quality product 2013 at 1:09 am # Thanks. Compare the two reels, all seasons impressed with the smoothness of the Supreme is a compelling for. And sealing water with it automatically when you book a nice fish, ultralight. No means unique to Pflueger or the Purist is an inshore reel covers. Sync, mitigating flexing and slop Trion Spincast reel - size MS. $ 24.97 almost every day of my.. Is unlikely to be a huge difference to your ability to catch fish all rights reserved broad! Your thing, then the Pflueger President reel features the oscillating gearing system that minimizes line twists this is better...

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